The difference between 'q' and 'ch'
Home New Posts
Login: Pass: Log in or register for standard view and full access.
Page 3 of 3 < 12 3
Jose -
Quote:
This is because they are two completely different sounds, made in different places in the mouth. I
can't imagine anyone with good Chinese, be they native or not, pronouncing these two the same way.
They might be related, but so are, for example, p, k and t, yet no one with decent English (Dutch,
Spanish, etc) would mix them up.
I am not arguing against how different they are, only stating that they have limited distinctive
value, and that is a very important criterion to know how much margin for mispronunciation you
have before you're misunderstood. Jerry Norman's "Chinese" has a short section (page 140) about
the disputed phonemic status of the palatals in Mandarin Chinese. You will not find anyone
disputing the phonemic status of p, k and t in Chinese or in any European language. Whether two
sounds are allophones or distinct phonemes does not depend on how much their points of
articulation differ, but on whether any minimal pairs can be found that are distinguished solely
because of either sound being used. For example, in English, the difference between the two
consonants /d/ and /ð/ is essential, as "day" and "they" are different words, but much less so in
Spanish, where the two sounds exist as variants of the "d" phoneme (and native speakers are not
even aware that there is a difference). You can pronounce a word like "candado" as /kan'dado/ and
you will sound fine (just a tad foreign) even if native speakers say something like /kaŋ'daðo/.
Anyway, I'm deviating too much from the original question. I only wanted to point out that when we
start to learn Chinese we may spend too much time trying to understand the difference between
"chu" and "qu" as a difference in the initial consonant, and it helps if you're aware that "qu" is
pronounced with the ü vowel. Because few consonants can occur in front of that vowel, if you get
the vowel and the tone right you will be understood, even if your "q" is not palatal enough. But,
of course, if you learn to produce a nice aspirated and palatal consonant, that will be much much
better.
Pleco Software Learn Chinese with our Dictionaries for Palm and Pocket PC.
Learn Chinese in China Learn to speak Chinese 1MonthChinese.com -Mandarin School in China.
Chinese Textbooks Wide range, cheap, varied languages. Also Chinese cartoons, toys, gifts.
Study Chinese in Beijing Affordable Mandarin language courses at BLCU with ChinaUnipath.com.
HNHSoft Dictionary Learn Chinese on Smartphone and PDA with real person's voice.
XueXueXue IQChinese Get beyond the plateau.Take your Mandarin to a new level.
Chinese in Lijiang Short term Chinese study in a beautiful town with a focus on daily life.
MandarinTube Chinese Access to current everyday Chinese language and culture, 24/7.
Learn Chinese Homestay Chinese course, cultural activities & volunteer events in China.
Learn Chinese Online 1-on-1 instant tutoring, diverse courses, native teachers. FREE trial now!
Nihao Chinese Progam Free one-on-one Chinese lesson. Win 5-years of free lessons now!
About Ads (and how to hide them) -- Your message here
atitarev -
Jose,
I also agree with other posters that the distinction is very important, much more important than
your example in Spanish. Dialect speakers may mix shi/si, chi/ci, zhi/zi but never palatalized
with unpalatalised (qi/chi) or aspirated with unaspirated (qi/ji). This mix sound very foreign and
wrong, besides, not close enough to be understood in many cases. Try saying "7-8" in Mandarin
without palatalisation, you'll know what I mean.
Europeans have no problems picking up the difference between si/shi but usually have more
difficulties with qi/chi or qi/ji, whereas dialect speakers or speakers of some Asian countries
have the reverse.
I am one of the fans of Hanyu Pinyin system and I think it's a very good system, if it's
understood and used properly (Pinyin must be learned in combination with the Chinese phonetics).
Lu -
Quote:
if you get the vowel and the tone right you will be understood, even if your "q" is not palatal
enough. But, of course, if you learn to produce a nice aspirated and palatal consonant, that will
be much much better.
Again, getting it approximately right is fine if you just want to learn some quick Chinese for a
holiday, but if the OP is serious in learning Chinese, I think it's a very bad idea to start out
with only getting it chabuduo right. It'll be much harder to correct in the future.
Btw, sure if you get the vowel and the tone right you'll likely be understood, but many English
speakers have trouble with exactly that u, let alone tones.
I think the best thing the OP can do is find him/herself a native speaker to explain this sound.
leosmith -
Quote:
I am not arguing against how different they are, only stating that they have limited distinctive
value, and that is a very important criterion to know how much margin for mispronunciation you
have before you're misunderstood.
If you don't distinguish between the two, you will not be well understood, perhaps not understood
at all. You would know this if you actually tried it, right?
I agree with the others - a combo of Sinosplice, FSI, and Mandarin Chinese Phonetics will explain
it. For a summary:
1. to make the q sound, your tongue needs to be in the e (as in "eel") position. Without changing
its location, try to make a ch sound like in english.
2. to make the ch sound, your tongue needs to be in the ch (as in "churn") position. Without
changing its location, try to make a ch sound like in english.
Prase -
jose: Even if the theory is correct, (I think it isn't) how can you know that s/q/j are allophones
to sh/ch/zh and not to h/k/g or s/c/z?
here2learn -
Wow, plenty here about where to put your tongue.
I thought I had nothing left to contribute, BUT....
No one has mentioned our sexy lips.
Really... to make CH SH in English we pull the sides of our lips/cheeks in a bit. In chinese we
rarely do this. Relax the cheeks and mouth/lips, they may feel awkwardly "wide" at first, but
don't force them into anything, just relax them; don't pucker or pull them inward at all.
This goes for all the q,j,x, ch,sh,zh and probably more sounds. English has a lot of cheek
movement; chinese doesn't.
When I was learning French my cheeks often got tired; they should not get tired in Mandarin or
you're doing something wrong.
LaVandez -
Great stuff here but I get lost in this stuff on palatials and allophones. I think some of this
stuff has to be able to be explained in an easier less technical way so I do like it when there
are approximations but for me in this case I try to imagine exactly what is going on and I still
don't know if I quite get it.
leosmith -
Quote:
1. to make the q sound, your tongue needs to be in the e (as in "eel") position. Without changing
its location, try to make a ch sound like in english.
2. to make the ch sound, your tongue needs to be in the ch (as in "churn") position. Without
changing its location, try to make a ch sound like in english.
Quote:
Great stuff here but I get lost in this stuff on palatials and allophones. I think some of this
stuff has to be able to be explained in an easier less technical way so I do like it when there
are approximations but for me in this case I try to imagine exactly what is going on and I still
don't know if I quite get it.
Still don't get it?
Prase -
To get x, try to pronounce english sh while touching your lower teeth with your tongue. As sh
cannot be pronounced with the tongue in this position, you should get x.
To get pinyin sh, try to pronounce sh with the tongue curled back. Or you may try this:
http://www. From Beijing Chinese School/showthread.php?t=22844
Then it shouldn't be too much difficult to get q and j from x and zh and ch from sh.
However, it is absolutely necessary you can distinguish them in speech of natives first. Otherwise
you will not be able to recognise if you pronounce them correctly or not. You would be like a deaf
man who is trying to learn to speak.
All times are GMT +8. The time now is 06:17 PM.
chinese language lessons, learn chinese language, learn to speak chinese, mandarin learn, study chinese, study chinese in china, studying chinese, china chinese in learning, chinese language class, chinese language exchange, chinese language in china, chinese language lesson, chinese language study, chinese language tutor, learn chinese beijing, learn chinese in beijing, learn chinese pinyin, learn to speak mandarin chinese, learning chinese online, learning the chinese language, mandarin learn online, study chinese china, studying chinese online
